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Posted By Shaun K. about 2 months, 3 weeks ago
Thumb Wars: Ep 29: Making Money at What Cost?,
Thumb Wars: Episode 29: Microtransactions: Making Money at What Cost?
Welcome back to the show where we introduce the debate and you continue it. This week’s topic: Shaun & Austin examine the pros and cons of microtransactions in video games.
Thumb Wars is a weekly show hosted/produced by Shaun Kronenfeld dedicated to starting and encouraging dialogue and debate on a wide variety of topics within the video game industry. Look for a new Thumbs Wars every Sunday. Comments, opinions, and thoughts are not only welcome, they are the entire point. Feel free to follow Shaun on Twitter @bigred_13 if you feel so inclined.
I’ll say, a good DLC is what Bethesda and Obsidian has done/is doing, for games like Skyrim, Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas, and what Bioware did with Dragon Age 1 and even 2. A DLC should have REAL content, more playability and expanding the game for several solid hours etc. not a f*****g re-colored puppy skin for 5 USD/Euros (Fable 3) or the worst of this cancer, AN ULC!!! (unlockable content). Capcom is truly the EA of the East, charging first the full price of the game, and then locking parts of the game already made, for further payments.
And do not give me the bullshit that this is “absolutely necessary to survive” because that is not true. Bethesda can do without them and they make one of the biggest games in the market. Witcher 2 was not only published without any DLC payments, but you received a free remake of the game after a year when CDproject Red had almost completely redesigned several things and added several hours of extra content for *FREE*, and anyone who has seen witcher 2 knows that that was not a cheap game to make nor was it made in a hurry.
If a tiny company can make a Tripple A game without any hidden fees and give huge quanity of free content after a the game’s release, that they spent a whole year of actual developement time to produce, this just means that EA, Capcom etc. are just ran by idiots who have no idea how to run a game business.
It’s weird, but almost every time I email Zynga Support directly to report a bug, they give me 25-50 farm cash free. Pretty generous for a money making company.
Look at Guild Wars 2 ….. the exp system is so dumbed down to force players to buy exp boosts, it’s insane !
I feel there is a BIG difference between Team Fortress 2 and the possible future of micro-transactions. I can unlock every single weapon and item in the game without spending money. I just have to dedicate a lot of time and invest in trading and crafting. That process then becomes the full experience of Team Fortress 2. I don’t feel obligated to buy anything.
As for the rest of the discussion. Remember the beginning of DLC this generation? Originally DLC was basically the equivalent to an expansion pack. That’s how it was presented, now DLC is used as an excuse to squeeze money out of players and is basically made during the production of the core game. We have Randy Pitchford walking on stage showing off Borderlands 2 explaining how they have two expansions for a game that wasn’t even out yet. We have games like CoD reusing the exact same maps from previous titles and charging people $10 for the pack.
So yes in the beginning if micro-transactions are implemented we’ll see it used right. With in-game boosts for people who don’t have the time or something along those lines. But eventually they’ll push further and further into the core element of a title. And then you’ll have AAA games costing $30 but with a series of micro-transactions to keep playing.
Also in regards to the increasing cost. This should be a sign that the industry needs to change how it functions. I forgot if it on this show or another. But somebody mentioned how the development cycle is just a hold over from the 16,32-bit era of gaming only increasing with each generation without actual developmental change. Who ever said this (I think it was Shaun) I agree. Despite having an extremely smaller budget and much smaller team many indie developers are capable of producing games on par with the AAA titles in terms of gameplay and even graphics, usually putting art style over pure graphical power. The big guys need to take several pages out of the smaller books.
The real irritating thing with microtransactions is that after the Sony hack I don’t want to trust these people with payment information. Turbine Points (for LOTRO) made for an awesome Christmas gift, but otherwise I steer clear of microtransactions.
Personally, when I buy a game I expect to get a complete experience, and almost always microtransactions detract from that. If I wanted to feed a machine quarters, I’d play that Space Invaders arcade game in my local pizzeria, not buy an expensive RPG for my equally expensive home console. If EA wants to put microtransactions in, let them, but they should know that 1) I will almost never buy any microtransaction for personal privacy and security reasons, and 2) if I hear a game has microtransactions in a review, it makes me less willing to pay a premium, which makes me less willing to buy the game new. The presence of microtransactions detracts from the experiences I’m usually looking for, and that has a small, but noticeable effect on the price I’m willing to pay.
As long as the base title is a complete experience, then I’m indifferent. However, since we’re talking business there will probably be something present in the game to try to coerce you to do it – closed off areas, teasing the additional content on loading screens, whatever. A step away from full-blown in-game adverts, if you ask me.
The next experiment I think will be an attempt to sell you game modes (no, not the Garry’s mod kind, things like multiplayer and the sort). I’d like to see how people will react then.
I don’t get why people make such a big deal out of microtransactions, especially DLC. The only question you need to ask yourself is, “would I buy the game as is if it had no microtransactions?” There might be some issue with it interrupting the flow to mention them in game (though this is about as annoying as a pestering guild), but that is more how they inform you of it then with if it exists. As for DLC, just because you feel that you should get it for free doesn’t mean you get to. If you don’t think the cost of the game is worth it without the DLC (and not worth the cover price + price of DLC with the DLC), then for you it is an overpriced game; don’t buy it.
EA came out recently saying that microtransactions will now be a standard feature in all games they make for next-gen systems. I couldn’t be fucking happier.
I don’t play too many new video games (I’m a disgruntled 30 year old with a PS2), but I work as a concept artist for indie games. The money sucks, but that’s because they don’t make enough to offer good contracts. But if companies keep screwing over the market base, they’ll go to indie guys, which means they make more money which in turn means I get paid more to doodle dumb shit for them.
So yeah, I am on bended-knee every night hoping that the big developers get down-right fucking retarded with this shit. I hope it disenfranchise you guys, cripple their finances, and make my life a hell of lot easier in the process. Fuck the big-boys, support indie-developers (so I can line my pockets)!
I personali think, that capcom is the new hitler, that kick pupies in the nut sack, and dicapitate kitens:P
But I think that these micra crapactions will do more harm in the sense of pirating….
There are gamers in countries where people can afford one big budget game per 2-3 months, and becouse of these transactions these people will be scared away and turn to pirated games, torrents and other illeagel means to playing these games.
*seven paragraphes about how ea is the new hitler who kicks puppies later*
On the other hand, when people say “this is a business plain and simple”, all i can think of is, there must be some balance. people say “EA doesn’t care for the players, Capcom doesn’t care for the players” and, may it be true, may it be false, i can only think “well, bad for them, there is nothing worse than pissed of fans after you have ended their patience”.
I’m not saying they should not try to make money out of the deal, but if you try to tke too much money out of the players, thinking they will buy anything, they are gonna stop buying your games. hell, this is the reason of the first crash of videogames and the crash of comicbooks on the 90′s.
I dont mind microtransactions, because i think they sort of make sense. the problem is when you can only complete a game when you do microtransactions(and no, i don’t have problem with dlc that happens after the main game neither, they are different)
well talk about a poorly performed debate, just my opinion, sorry Shaun and Austin. Fortunately if it weren’t for that “This is not the BT Podcast we have standards, class and morals” my attention would have gone somewhere else.
To start off I think skeptics on micro-transactions are asking the wrong questions. It’s not just about whether it ruins the game experience or how well it is implemented. The question consumers should ask themselves is why should I pay extra for bits of small content after paying $60 for a game?
I’m going to go back and give examples of triple AAA budget games without micro-transactions in single player. Metal Gear Solid 4 estimate $60 million budget, Killzone 2 estimate $56 million budget, Skyrim estimate $85 million, God of War 3 estimate $44 million, Grand Theft Auto 4 $100 million, etc. Now I know these are not entirely accurate numbers but I think you know where I’m getting at. If Dead Space 3 isn’t that much of a difference from Dead Space 2 in quality yet is way more expensive then something is wrong. Last time I remember there were micro-transactions in DS2 single player oh wait there wasn’t any.
Also I have to say about the Alien Colonial Marines thing. Shaun and Austin forget a major factor why ACM is the top no.1 selling game in the UK. Not because many who bought it are dumb consumers but also the pre-order. Yes you might argue that they were dumb to pre-order A:CM before seeing reviews in the first place but go back and watch the original trailer and demo then you’ll know why.
Lastly EA can support human rights, save penguins from extinction or breast feed a 100 starving children but when it comes to video games business they have a bad reputation.
Why should you pay? You don’t need to. If you don’t think they are worth it you’re not being forced to pay. Also, the comparison to Dead Space 2 is flawed; you can make that argument for any change, but just because something is different doesn’t mean it’s worse. So what if past games didn’t have microtransactions? Games also used to have little to no stories, crappy graphics, and tried their best to take every quarter you had. Having more possible content for a cost is a ridiculous thing to get so up-in-arms about. It’s like complaining to a fast food place for giving you the option to super-size for a bit extra.
I just hope it doesnt get out of hand and abused
I want everyone to take a look at the iOS/Android game Zenonia. Zenonia can be described as a Zelda game with RPG skill tree and items. It was rewarding spending endless hours playing the game because the game was enjoyable and making and hunting for equips was even more so.
Where Gamevil went down hill was turning Zenonia 3/4 and now 5 into free to play games with micro-transactions littered throughout the game. Every aspect of the game has some related micro transactions. The microtransactions are extremely crippling to how the original game was played and you SHOULD expect this for every game that wants microtransactions.
Just pointing out that the comparison with TF2 made no sense whatsoever. The reason it wasn’t bashed to oblivion is that it’s a free to play game, as opposed to DS3 that is full priced. Microtransactions are imperative there as it’s pretty much the only way for the developer to get paid. Furthermore, in TF2 you pay for cosmetic items for a multiplayer game, as opposed to cheats for a single player game. I really shouldn’t have to point out the difference there.
Also yes, there are people who worship Valve, but even they initially started with having opinions based on actual legitimate reasons. Valve tries their best to not make their customers feel screwed over (even if they actually are screwed sometimes), and are essentially earning money off consumer good will, as opposed to forcibly draining every single penny they can.
EA has decided not to care about their reputation and rides on purchasing and eventually ruining popular studios to make profit. They like being a punching bag, because they have found a way around it, hopefully one that won’t remain effective for long.
Really? EA doesn’t care about their reputation? I find that amusing considering that of EA and Valve only one company has put their reputation on the line to stand against bigotry and do their part to support Gay rights like marriage. You know what? Maybe you are right. Maybe EA don’t care what others think about them sometimes and thank god for that.
Meanwhile it is not EA that has continued to allow broken obvious alpha-state blatant ripoff games onto their site and bilked their customer base shamelessly in order to pad their profits and supposed indie cred in the process. Which is not to say EA is blameless or perfect; by no means is that true either. The current debacle surrounding Real Racing 3 is proof enough of that and incidentally as worst case a scenario for micros gone wrong as Dead Space 3 is for them used right.
Personally I love the side of Valve that makes games a lot more than I do the side of Valve that runs Steam. To me they are almost separate entities at this point. My point is that EA is not the Devil and Valve is not angelic and perfect. Both are business in this to make money but both also have done plenty of good as well. I just wish more people would look at them equally and with unclouded eyes as it were.
Exactly, their is a good side to EA. They released Dead Space in a time when everyone believed survival horror was dead, they stood up to the homophobic hate mails of their games and they are the only big named publisher in the industry now that’s pushing for diversity and equality.
I do think EA has the potential to be respected as Valve if they could stop being the greedy corporate stereotype.
Well, the other possibility that I discounted is that their PR department is completely incompetent. I can’t for the life of me figure out what they were hoping to accomplish by announcing that microtransactions will be a standard feature in all their future games.
Putting your reputation on the line for something is one thing, and of course a business has to make money, but I can’t help but feel that they are trying really hard to be hated for some reason. And obviously successfully so.
I guess my opinion of microtransactions would all be on a case-by-case basis – depends on what they’re used for and how much they are. Which really makes it hard to say anything here, honestly. I could try and discuss specific examples, but my experience with them is extremely limited. I don’t buy DLC for many games, and most of what I do is larger content, like the Mass Effect series’ expansions, not smaller ones. I tend to ignore things like bonus items and costumes, as I consider them unlikely to be worth the cost.
I can understand that micro transactions are in some situations necessarily for a business, but I don’t think EA is really in that position to need it, there just diluting their game with greed. And I think there are better ways to implement micro transactions then putting them into full price games that can sour the experience of the game for some people.
The big concern I see out of micro-transactions is that game developers may try to find ways to abuse it as much as possible by changing the design of their games. The reason why Dead Space 3′s transactions weren’t a big deal is because it was really a pay-to-cheat scenario that no one who wanted to enjoy the game for what it is would actually do.
Games could become intentionally unfairly difficult and frustrating to the player, like making enemies far stronger than the player character, with the feeling that you have no chance against them. Then it might feel like the only way to win is to give in and buy better stuff in order to start having fun. Or lock out content which you could only access by paying for it.
It isn’t like this could actually happen since game companies do need to keep consumers happy or else no one would buy their games. But anything still could happen.
“This is not the BT Podcast we have standards, class and morals”
20 seconds later Shaun interrupts Austin in every other sentence in the discussion about TF2 with out giving solid arguments.
Yeah, class and standard, Shaun?
I’ve heard that EA wants to start pricing their next gen games at a $70 price point.
I don’t mind micro-transactions when it’s just something you can get in the game regularly or speeds up a process (unless said process is slowed so that paying for it is the only way to really make headway).
However, I think that if they are going to charge me $10 and up for additional content, it better be like the old PC days expansions worth of content, not a one to two hour romp.
And costumes should not be $3-$5. I’m looking at you Tales of Graces.
It’s funny, because mathematically we as consumers are paying less for games than we were 10 years ago, inflation adjusted.
I think a $60.00 game in 1998 would be around $80.00 today, for example. Really, that price point is arbitrary, and is actually lower than what it should be considering budgets now a days. Of course, raising it would suck, but I doubt EA would make the move unless one of the big three mandated it.
It’s also funny that the microtransactions introduced in Dead Space 3 were essentially cheats for a single player game. Mathematically those had always been free.
If that becomes a thing it can only go downhill from here. It’s only a matter of time before developers give in to the temptation and design games around them, making them impossible to beat without paying extra.
Why?
Considering its a way to cheat, why would you want to cheat then if you would rather play honestly. It doesn’t effect you whatsoever if you don’t purchase such upgrades.
On that token, why would someones experience in a single player mode affect your own decisions, considering its a single player game?
I think you missed his real point. What about when the developers make it so that you HAVE to ‘cheat’ with micro-transactions to progress in the game? You don’t think that would be a problem? #PoniesPoniesPonies
Oh I get his real point Mikko, but I would argue it is irrelevant because there is no evidence to back it up, it us supposition that such practices will be done in the console game market in the future.
And if they are done, I would stake money that it wouldn’t matter because a majority of those out there would buy them anyway.
“I’ve heard that EA wants to start pricing their next gen games at a $70 price point.”
I wouldn’t be surprised. Heck, in retrospect I’m surprised that didn’t happen this generation, with the way development costs have gone up.
Microtransactions to finance games that are free to play are great.
They are a way to directly support the game company if I like it and since the game is free, you can’t pull a spore, a duke nukem forever, an aliens:cm etc on me.
I know exactly what I am paying for.
Microtransactions in a full price game are an abomination that needs to be suffocated while it’s still in its infancy.
The argument that they are a necessary evil to offset the production costs doesn’t hold much water if we’re talking about full price titles and if the development costs inflate to absurd levels, how about finding ways to lower them instead?
Also if you may look at dead space 3, the supposed “good” way of doing singleplayer microtransactions, you will notice that the thing being monetized is essentially cheats and -despite it being unintrusive- that is bullshit on so many levels, I could write you a page full about of it but I trust you already get an idea why.
No, I feel there is no place for microtransactions on top of a 60-70$ price tag on top of day 1 DLC on top of season passes.
I am not so sure about microtransactions being here to stay, also the prognosis that the costs for developing games will rise 25% is only taking into account if thing stay the way they are. There could be something really big happening that will fundemantely change the industry and games and developers/publishers might change with it, of course that is only a prognosis too. If I were to compare the videogame industry with the music industry then we are currently in the hair metal stage, overproduced and overblown but that might change sooner than later and all could be washed away by some grungeband or something, I know I know, bad metaphor just roll with it. My point is a prognisis rarely comes true because it can only take into account the way things are now, it can not look into the future, who knows what can happen in 2-3 years that we couldn’t possibly foresee and that goes especially for stuff like Microtransactions and these AAA high budget cinematic gaming experiences that need to sell 5 million units in order to make a profit or something. That could all come crashing down and the focus will shift to othe things. Maybe to simpler games that don’t cost as much to make but have a creative idea behind it and built from there. The future of gaming is probably not as bleak as some might think.
On that note I have an idea or request for a new Thumb Wars, the new generation is coming and I would like to know, if you could make a game, be it an original, a sequel or a remake, what would it be and mor importantly how would that look like. Play developer so to speak.
Sometimes, l can’t help but be thankful for the Indie scene when stuff like this happens. If AAA publishers are going to follow EA’s model then the console market crash can’t come fast enough.
EA is the next Hitler that kicks puppies.
YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORSKI! DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU TO HELL!
They are turning their games in Facebook games only with more quality and advanced graphics. That is the future. That’s no good.